The extent of power

[Robomajor]

Kongregate chat is sort of gray area, it is part of VW and its community, but at the same time it isn't. Your actions there should not result in ban in the game, but you still should try to behave (I know that is too much to ask from people on internet ).

I know how sword behaves, I saw what sort of things he usually writes. It bothered me a little but I let it go. If the ban is in place solely because of actions in kong chat, then I will lift it.

I am also seriously considering dropping moderator features altogether... it just doesn't work as I hoped it would

As Lopdo says here, you shouldn't have been banned if you were only misbehaving in Kong's chat. And since you were banned successfully, you were probably being naughty in Vortex Wars as well. But, it seems that what happened in Kong's chat is what may have pushed Hatchu over the top; which shouldn't have happened. Shouldn't bans be made solely on what happens in the game itself?

[BelgarionRiva]

Kongregate chat is sort of gray area, it is part of VW and its community, but at the same time it isn't. Your actions there should not result in ban in the game, but you still should try to behave (I know that is too much to ask from people on internet ).

I know how sword behaves, I saw what sort of things he usually writes. It bothered me a little but I let it go. If the ban is in place solely because of actions in kong chat, then I will lift it.

I am also seriously considering dropping moderator features altogether... it just doesn't work as I hoped it would

As Lopdo says here, you shouldn't have been banned if you were only misbehaving in Kong's chat. And since you were banned successfully, you were probably being naughty in Vortex Wars as well. But, it seems that what happened in Kong's chat is what may have pushed Hatchu over the top; which shouldn't have happened. Shouldn't bans be made solely on what happens in the game itself?

He wasn't, which is why we're even having this argument. He was careful to be polite ingame, and didn't care about what he said outside of the game.

[Robomajor]

But as you can see here

I think no one is paying attention to the fact that Hatchu stated this abuse first happened during a VW game. Recognize that the ban was placed before the documented discussions. If you expect to go around swearing at people and have positive experiences from this, your mistaken. This does not just apply to VW, but life in general. You get out of it what you put into it, so consider it one of life's lessons, and next time be a little nicer.

the abuse did happen in game as well.

[Swordalchemist]

But as you can see here

I think no one is paying attention to the fact that Hatchu stated this abuse first happened during a VW game. Recognize that the ban was placed before the documented discussions. If you expect to go around swearing at people and have positive experiences from this, your mistaken. This does not just apply to VW, but life in general. You get out of it what you put into it, so consider it one of life's lessons, and next time be a little nicer.

the abuse did happen in game as well.

The ban was based on actions on the Kongregate chatrooms. While Hatchu did refer to some actions within the VW game, I do not recall any comments of mine in game (I meticulously try to remain polite while on the VW game for this very reason) and Hatchu brought forth no transcript or screenshot of anything said in game. He recalled that I was being "abusive" in game, but could not produce any rememberance of what I had said.

I think what is generally being ignored so far is the actions of Fiendess regarding the situation. Instead of simply listening to my case, she refused to hear it at all... prompting my appeal to Lopdo. Is this the proper course of action for the head moderator? In my opinion... it is not. I feel that Fiend is head moderator for a reason.. and that is to provide integrity and justice. When she simply waives away my request after stereotyping me, she is not providing either.

[Robomajor]

I do think it was unfair for Hacthu to ban Swordalchemist without any evidence. If someone banned me like that, I would be appalled. Although, it is up to Lopdo to either believe the word of a trusted mod or dismiss the case because it is only that. If I were Lopdo, I would require more evidence.

[Joriom]

Thats a hard topic. Humanity did not yet come to consensus is some matters and probably never will. Thats why everything depends on local laws. Thats why we have judges - or at least thats should be why (even if it got distorted with time). Thats why judges have superiors.
Basically what we deal here with is simple problem of judge (mod) powers and their area. As simple as that. Although most difficult.

Some of you may say that moderator should not be able to punish user for offense made outside the game. That depends. Mostly on personal view and own principles. You can not avoid that. We're only humans. Everyone of us got different point of view and belies.

Thats why humanity came to the point where we've formed some most basic "human rights". Every country can have its own rules, but they should* inherit those superior ones. We can go deeper in hierarchy and what we will notice is inheritance and extension. Extension based on personal principles of a single person or a group.

Back to our game. Vortex Wars. Lopdo is its creator. Not to say "a god". Hes the valid person to set up rights in this game. We might not agree with them but we, players, are only visitors. We do not have granted right to play this game. All we got is privilege of being part of this community. Needles to say that it is up to Lopdo to decide who should and who should not have that privilege. Also thats up to Lopdo to decide who will help him create or maintain the rules in HIS community.

Lets look at Swordalchemist. Hes being rude to person brought to enforce rules. Not only that. Hes being rude to many people around him. Even more. In private conversation he confirms that it is what he does. He likes to cause people to lose their temper.
Now lets look at Hatchu. Hes being offended. He, as an authority, is being laughed at. He can see person which tries to wreak havoc. He stands in defense of out community and revokes Swords privilege. He does not deprive Sword of his rights. He only takes privilege out of him.
What about Fiendess? She's being informed that someone does not agree with his "punishment". As she states she already had some complaints about that person. She decides not to waste her time and lets Sword to take his lesson. Maybe next time he will think about his words twice.
Lopdo? IMHO hes fighting with windmills. Even more than I do. One can not satisfy everyone. Thats why I think some people should have less privileges. Not rights. Privileges. But its up to him to judge judges. Judges that he have chosen to help him enforce HIS rules.

Some of you might not agree with you. Thats your right. I might not care about that. That is my right. But none of us got granted right to play this game. If Lopdo decides that he does not like me and banish me? Thats his right to take that privilege from me.
If you care about someone you try to be in good relations with him. Best possible ones! If you care about something you try to be in good relations with people who create and maintain it or else they can take it from you as that is their right.

What I see here a lot are demands and complaints. Maybe I'm not a great thinker but thats not how it should be. We expect others to do better and can't see out own faults. I suppose I forgot half of what I wanted to tell you. Thats my point of view. Thats a vision I have due to my principles.

Code: Select all

<troll>
   It happends to be my 200th post!
</troll>

[BetaGen]

5 Simple points throughout the discussion:

1. The topic has overextended in discussions (Too much text, a valid point can be said in a short sentence)
2. Techgump was right - "reality check" was missed (Dude it's just 2 days... deal with it)
3. The discussion sometimes went about law and justice in general, rather than this particular scenario. (Generalization lead to overextension)
4. Personal opinions are not arguments.
5. Control yourself SwordAlchemist, you messed with Hacku, you got revenge.(was it right or wrong is pointless to discuss in this situation)

I understand that people are impulsive and the internet is a "safe" place to express yourself as you want, but are you really that angry,obsessed in your life? If so I recommend a chill-pill. Next time you feel the urge to be aggressive, get a stress-ball or something.
Lastly, a situation in real life that might have some resemblance to this situation:
Call your boss in many bad names on the street, think you won't get fired/demoted/on the edge at work after that?
Freedom of speech, human rights... Stop it. There's a time and a place for that and the place is definitely not games/chats/forums

[Ratburntro44]

5. Control yourself SwordAlchemist, you messed with Hacku, you got revenge.(was it right or wrong is pointless to discuss in this situation)

But that's exactly what this is about. Whether Hatchu acted how he should, or if he abused his powers (in which case he should be demoted).

[BetaGen]

Assuming the evidence and reasons by Hacku and Fiendess are credible and true, the Alchemist deserved the temporary ban. That was enough time to realize your own offensive behavior. He clearly showed some maturity and reason in the forum and thus should understand the consequences of continuous disrespect

[Swordalchemist]

Thats a hard topic. Humanity did not yet come to consensus is some matters and probably never will. Thats why everything depends on local laws. Thats why we have judges - or at least thats should be why (even if it got distorted with time). Thats why judges have superiors.
Basically what we deal here with is simple problem of judge (mod) powers and their area. As simple as that. Although most difficult.

Some of you may say that moderator should not be able to punish user for offense made outside the game. That depends. Mostly on personal view and own principles. You can not avoid that. We're only humans. Everyone of us got different point of view and belies.

Thats why humanity came to the point where we've formed some most basic "human rights". Every country can have its own rules, but they should* inherit those superior ones. We can go deeper in hierarchy and what we will notice is inheritance and extension. Extension based on personal principles of a single person or a group.

Back to our game. Vortex Wars. Lopdo is its creator. Not to say "a god". Hes the valid person to set up rights in this game. We might not agree with them but we, players, are only visitors. We do not have granted right to play this game. All we got is privilege of being part of this community. Needles to say that it is up to Lopdo to decide who should and who should not have that privilege. Also thats up to Lopdo to decide who will help him create or maintain the rules in HIS community.

Lets look at Swordalchemist. Hes being rude to person brought to enforce rules. Not only that. Hes being rude to many people around him. Even more. In private conversation he confirms that it is what he does. He likes to cause people to lose their temper.
Now lets look at Hatchu. Hes being offended. He, as an authority, is being laughed at. He can see person which tries to wreak havoc. He stands in defense of out community and revokes Swords privilege. He does not deprive Sword of his rights. He only takes privilege out of him.
What about Fiendess? She's being informed that someone does not agree with his "punishment". As she states she already had some complaints about that person. She decides not to waste her time and lets Sword to take his lesson. Maybe next time he will think about his words twice.
Lopdo? IMHO hes fighting with windmills. Even more than I do. One can not satisfy everyone. Thats why I think some people should have less privileges. Not rights. Privileges. But its up to him to judge judges. Judges that he have chosen to help him enforce HIS rules.

Some of you might not agree with you. Thats your right. I might not care about that. That is my right. But none of us got granted right to play this game. If Lopdo decides that he does not like me and banish me? Thats his right to take that privilege from me.
If you care about someone you try to be in good relations with him. Best possible ones! If you care about something you try to be in good relations with people who create and maintain it or else they can take it from you as that is their right.

What I see here a lot are demands and complaints. Maybe I'm not a great thinker but thats not how it should be. We expect others to do better and can't see out own faults. I suppose I forgot half of what I wanted to tell you. Thats my point of view. Thats a vision I have due to my principles.

Not to be offensive, but much of what you said was slightly hard to understand. I believe I got the jist of it, but please correct me if I restate your views incorrectly.

Firstly, from what I can gather, you thesis is basically this: Players have no right to play Vortex Wars, it is a priviledge. Now this is where you become to be a little unclear. You stated that Lopdo (being the god) gifts us with this priviledge, but then you also stated that moderators have the right to revoke that priviledge also.
Lopdo is the all knowing "god" in this situation, and since it is his game.... he makes the rules. While switching around the rules, or making new ones all the time may not be good for increasing his player population, he nevertheless has the right to do so. However.... moderators are simply his tools. They are not above they rules in any way whatsoever. They may only revoke "priviledges" when Lopdo deems it necessary. He has laid out a set of guidelines in which priviledge revocation is necessary, which can be found in the rulebook.
Hatchu is not all powerful. He cannot simply take matters into his own hands, and stretch his own priviledge as a moderator.

I would also like to address the judge analogy that you pointed to quite frequently. You have referred to moderators as "judges", an analogy that I think is only slightly off. Moderators are like the policemen. They see those that break the rules, and proceed to "arrest" them. The defendants can then proceed to appeal their "arrest" to a judge (being Fiendess). Unfortunately the "judge" in this case had already jumped to a conclusion about the nature of the defendant "He's a troll so he must have been wrong" and refused to hear the issue.
While we are on the track of the judge analogy, lets also go back to the situation. Hatchu is the "policeman" of... lets say the United States. He took a little road trip to Canada, where I happened to be staying. I got into a fight with him and effectively punched him in the face in a Canadian bar. That action is not legal in the United States... and quite possibly is not in Canada either. As a police officer from the U.S., Hatchu decided to arrest me in his jurisdiction a few days later, instead of informing the proper Canadian authorities.
The bottom line is this: jurisdiction is quite a major thing. Hatchu cannot apply the rules that Lopdo set out for Vortex Wars to areas where he (Hatchu) has no jurisdiction.