The extent of power

[Swordalchemist]

Hello everyone! My name is Swordalchemist, and I'm sure many of you have seen me either in game or here on the forums. I have been playing this game for roughly 2 months now (maybe a slight bit more, I don't recall exactly). Throughout this period of time, I have enjoyed the game immensely, but have found some issues within the rules, and the way that they are enforced.
I have brought to light several of these discrepencies, and I am happy to say that many very satisfactory changes have been initiated. Unfortunately I have not made a ton of friends on the moderation staff due to these issues that I have called out. (not to say none, as I am happy to say that several of the moderators are very close friends of mine)

Earlier this evening, the culmination of my feud with some of the moderation team came to pass. I was banned by a moderator named Hatchu.



I quickly messaged him regarding the ban, and spoke with him at length for a short period of time. Below is a copy of the chat we had on the Kongregate chatroom.




I then proceeded onto this site, on which I exchanged a series of private messages with Hatchu regarding the issue.

This is the most recent. Another will follow if you would like to see it.

(Sunday 4th Dec '11 @12:02).....

matthew44456: wow that guys a dick
Hatchu: excuse me?
shawnsanwakid: hi
Swordalchemist: hatchu is
lustfulgangsta: hi hatchet
Swordalchemist: yeah
matthew44456: yeah you saw what i said
Swordalchemist: hatchet wants my hatchet in his face
Swordalchemist: he wants me choppin at him if you know what i mean
matthew44456: wow i know what you mean
lustfulgangsta: wow i did what you mean
Swordalchemist: lol
matthew44456: fu
Swordalchemist: what matt?
matthew44456: not you lust
matthew44456: hatchu your a ****in bastard
Hatchu: lol
Hatchu: a what?
matthew44456: bastard
Hatchu: oh right...lol
matthew44456: a **** i n bastard
Hatchu: does this make you feel any better?
Swordalchemist: yeah he is
Swordalchemist: he's a total dicktard
Hatchu: got any more clever words?
Swordalchemist: i want to **** his face like it was an iceberd
matthew44456: i cant say f u
Swordalchemist: i can!
Swordalchemist: **** you!
Swordalchemist: **** you!
matthew44456: at least spell it out
Hatchu: yup
Swordalchemist: **** you!
Hatchu: keep it coming
Swordalchemist: lol
matthew44456: ****
matthew44456: ****
Swordalchemist: F.Uck you!
matthew44456: ****
Hatchu: beautiful
Swordalchemist: yes!
Hatchu: almost poetic
Swordalchemist: penistardboob?




There are many other instances which I could request from lopdo/fiendess. We can pull any other conversation you have had and check if you like or we could draw a line under this with an apology. Your choice.

Swordalchemist: he's a **** (referring to me) (edited by Hatchu)
Swordalchemist: im not letting mods in any rooms that i make
benji199512: ill die then ill make a good game
benji199512: and u will win it
benji199512: ull see
benji199512: join!!!!!!!!!
benji199512: ^__^
benji199512: sword?
Hatchu: lol
Hatchu: i saw all of this
benji199512: i know
benji199512: sword?
Hatchu: just a warning then
benji199512: what
Hatchu: sword u got to stop sweqring
Hatchu: swearing
benji199512: sword?

This was post game. You used the word fuck and called me a bender, amongst other things. I warned you several times (once is enough) and I was very lenient.
One instance is enough to ban, after I have warned. So for this to happen twice, you are very fortunate you have met me. Other mods would not have given you this amount of leniency.

In response to his first message:

You do realize that these words were in the Kongregate chatroom? You cannot ban me for actions outside of the Vortex Wars game. If this was the case... you could ban me if I swore at you on the street... or in real life. Likewise Fiend could ban me in game.. for insulting her on skype or something like that.
I do believe that the Vortex Wars Rulebook only governs the Vortex Wars game. No matter my conduct outside... you cannot ban me in game for words that I say outside of that game. You could report me to Kongregate though... since their rules govern that chat.


Also, I am not going to verify that I said any of that... since a "transcript" is hardly definitive proof. If you produce a screenshot, that is much better evidence.

I would like you to attempt to pull out many more conversations.... that happened in game
I also don't see any warnings provided here... I believe that was one of the requirements. Please point it out.. if I missed it.

Lastly... I seem to see that you told me to (and I quote) "keep it coming" which constitutes a request of my words. If it was truly harassment... kongregate gives you both an option to report it to them, and/or mute me. Your statement "keep it coming" can hardly be seen as a request for me to stop the language.

In response to his second message:

Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:56 pm
by Swordalchemist
Hmm.. seeing as there is no screenshot, and I saw absolutely none of that. I am going to go on record.. and state that this never happened. This is simply an attempt by you to back up a ban that was not substantial.

You are right, there is no screenshot of in game stuff but this shows how you conduct yourself. It was immediately after game too.
I said, "keep it coming" after I told you that I was now recording the conversation... thus adding to the evidence against you.
The abuse in game was awful and you know that it was inappropriate. I have conducted myself properly and with decorum. Unfortunately, you did not.

Well unfortunately since there is no record of any abuse in game (if you could bring forth a screenshot or even a transcript of that conversation it might add weight to your argument) I believe that it is not allowed to ban a player based on poor actions outside of Vortex Wars.
My conduct outside of Vortex Wars is simply not something you can judge with the weight of your moderation position. I think a fit analogy of this situation would be the differences in laws between nations. For instance... where I live, smoking marijuana is illegal. However, in Amsterdam, smoking it is allowed. My police cannot arrest citizens of Amsterdam, or jail them for smoking marijuana in Amsterdam. However, if they come here, those police could take that action.
The same goes for this situation. While you may dissaprove of my conduct... or even find it offensive, the rules of Vortex Wars do not apply in Kongregate chat. As I said before, I would reccomend sending in a support ticket to Kongregate if you felt harassed by my words.

My character is not something you can base a ban decision on... you must base it on an action which I have committed in game (and that is definite and provable)
Also... a warning must be given to me before a ban, and I still have not received a warning. In your "transcript" you claim to have issued a "warning" after I was gone (for actions done on Kongregate chat). You must also issue a warning based on actions on Vortex Wars... not on an outside source.

One last point for the moment:

These actions were not today... or even in the last few days I believe. Why did not not proceed to ban me on the spot...? Instead you followed me, and then banned me today, days after your purported incident.

The mails between myself and Hatchu have not been continued so far, and since he seemed intent on keeping the ban, I decided to move to his superior: Fiendess. I spoke for a brief period of time with Fiend on skype, and I have copied and pasted the conversation below. I will produce screenshots if requested, but for the sake of time and space, I will include it in this format for now.

And for those who cannot figure it out... I am "John/Ampatriot", and Fiend is "Fiendess of Fate". I did not edit these names for the sake of keeping this record unblemished

[10:20:47 PM] John/Ampatriot: Hello there fiend
[10:20:49 PM] John/Ampatriot: are you around?
[10:40:14 PM] John/Ampatriot: I need to speak with you... preferably sooner than later.. since I am planning on posting a sensitive subject this evening
[10:41:55 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: What do you want?
[10:42:06 PM] John/Ampatriot: Well I'd like to speak with you
[10:42:09 PM] John/Ampatriot: As I just stated
[10:42:34 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: ok...
[10:42:37 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: get 2 the point
[10:42:47 PM] John/Ampatriot: I believe that you know that my username on Vortex Wars is Swordalchemist
[10:42:56 PM] John/Ampatriot: I was banned this evening by a moderator named Hatchu
[10:43:17 PM] John/Ampatriot: His reason for banning was my "conduct towards him in the Kongregate chatroom"
[10:43:34 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: No appeals.
[10:43:39 PM] John/Ampatriot: What?
[10:43:40 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: I've had more than 1 report about you
[10:43:43 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: in PM's
[10:43:46 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: you serve your ban.
[10:43:48 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: gnight.
[10:43:51 PM] John/Ampatriot: Oh is that so?
[10:44:02 PM] John/Ampatriot: I do believe that petioning is a basic human right
[10:44:09 PM] John/Ampatriot: But that is beside the point
[10:44:43 PM] John/Ampatriot: Is this your final statement? No ability for me give you the facts of this issue?
[10:45:32 PM] John/Ampatriot: And by the way, I would like to see these validated reports that you have gained regarding me
[10:48:53 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: classified info
[10:49:32 PM] John/Ampatriot: Oh is that so?
[10:49:36 PM] John/Ampatriot: Why is that?
[10:49:45 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: its how it is.
[10:49:53 PM] John/Ampatriot: Hmm.. I wasn't aware of that
[10:49:54 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: Look
[10:50:00 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: I'm not gonna bother lopdo for an unban
[10:50:04 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: its not gonna happen.
[10:50:08 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: you're a known troll.
[10:50:16 PM] John/Ampatriot: You are stereotyping me?
[10:50:18 PM] John/Ampatriot: Anyway
[10:50:22 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: no
[10:50:29 PM] John/Ampatriot: I am going to have to bring this too him then.. and I will be posting a topic on the forums
[10:50:30 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: i just know you earned the ban.
[10:50:32 PM] John/Ampatriot: I would like to let you know
[10:50:36 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: Well look.
[10:50:39 PM] John/Ampatriot: How do you know this? You have not reviewed the situation
[10:50:41 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: conduct on kong chatbox for VW
[10:50:45 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: can get you banned.
[10:50:51 PM] John/Ampatriot: Is governed by Kongregate rules
[10:50:53 PM] John/Ampatriot: No it cannot
[10:50:54 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: Idc
[10:50:55 PM] John/Ampatriot: Well
[10:50:57 PM] John/Ampatriot: Alright
[10:50:59 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: Its for VW
[10:51:03 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: it bothers the VW community
[10:51:07 PM] John/Ampatriot: Its still governed by Kongregate
[10:51:10 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: including a respected moderator.
[10:51:12 PM] Fiendess Of Fate: yes it is.
[10:51:13 PM] John/Ampatriot: It also features something named the mute button

Now let me get into the discussion area of this post. First... a necessary quote from the rulebook (the first of many):

Ban - Self explanatory. This allows a mod to stop access to your account for a set period of days, as per the rule book.

So basically... bans are to be given out based on existing rules. Makes sense right? Moderators can't just use the ban hammer per their own wim and fancy. The rules are specific on what falls under the category of bans... specifically harassment was referred to as the reason for this ban. Let me quote the list of "don'ts" provided by Vortex Wars.

Swearing should be kept limited. Please respect other people who also use the website. Cussing at members and staff members will be treated as harassment.
Using racist remarks, displaying discriminative, harmful or threatening behavior (including blackmailing or bribery in real life) toward members or staff is considered cyber bullying. This is not acceptable behaviour, and willl not be tolerated.
Spamming and advertising is definitely not permitted, there will be heavy action towards this kind of behavior.
As shown in the first note, harassing members and staff will result in actions being taken against you.
Messages in *ALL CAPS* <- Like this are not allowed, it is annoying and can be considered as spam.
Sexism will not be tolerated by our members of staff. It is considered harassment, and will be treated as such.
Baiting individuals into arguments on a sensitive subject (religion, politics, and moral issues) is not acceptable behaviour. Please refrain from this, as it can be considered harassment.
Abusive Language may be considered spam or harassment, depending on the situation, at the moderators discretion.
Baiting and / or inciting other people into breaking the rules is considered ill mannered at best, and can be considered harassment by the moderators.

So basically, swearing directly at another member, or a staff member is considered harassment. Clearly stated, and it seems that according to Hatchu's transcript, this was exactly what I was doing. If his transcript is accurate, I did indeed "harass" Hatchu. However... the kicker here is that the "harassment" took place.... not on the forums, or on the game of Vortex Wars, but in a chatroom on a website named Kongregate.
For the record... I would like to point out that there is a reason why Vortex Wars mods do not have the power to silence Kongregate chatters. Kongregate is its own websites, and has its own moderation team which conducts bans and such based on its own policies. If a member of Kongregate chat feels harassed (such as Hatchu) they have 3 options:

1. Submit a support ticket reporting the harassment
2. Click the mute button, blocking all further posts by the user that is harassing them
3. Just ignore the "harasser"

Unfortunately when the "victim" of the harassment happens to be a moderator for a game in which the "harasser" plays, it seems that the mod may indeed take the situation into his own hands. Despite not having jurisdiction over the Kongregate chatroom, Hatchu proceeded to ban me on the basis of swearing at him in the chatroom of a site not governed by Vortex Wars rules.

I understand his slight dilemna, and the easy solution of taking his anger out via the game that he moderates, but I do not believe that this action is justified. If VW mods could pass their rules onto the Kongregate chat, all those that take part in the large discussions regarding politics, relgion, and the world in general could be eligible to receive a whack from the ban hammer in game.

However, this issue is, of course, not the large one. Hatchu's decision, even though disturbing, was simply based around his dislike of me, most likely due to my swearing in the Kongregate chatroom.
The elephant in the room here is the decision by the Head moderator to not even view the subject. Despite it being a large and controversial one, Fiend referred to me as a "troll" and decided not to hear my case simply due to judgements she had made regarding me beforehand. She then also stated that she "just knew that (I had) earned the ban". These hasty conclusions are something that are generally frowned upon in the real world.
For example, if a judge refused to hear a case simply because of the reputation of the defendant, that judge would not last much longer.

Moderators by definition must be impartial, but Fiend's words unfortunately do not point to her impartiality. Unfortunately... a sort of apathy seemed to take over Fiend as can be seen in our chat. Not only did she state that she did not care about the governing rules of Kongregate, but that she has some sort of power over that independent chatroom.

Those who have read my previous posts on this forum can attest to my predictions regarding this very power stretching that has appeared today. I realize that the system will never have perfect moderators, but it is never beneficial to see situations such as this appear.
I very much enjoy this game, and the community that is present here, but I honestly cannot see extended growth take place with a standard such as this in place. As I have said before, moderators much present justice and integrity to the VW community and abandon the hasty and biased conclusions that spring up so easily. Moderation is not a tool to fulfill one's own emotions or opinions, but to provide stability for the Vortex Wars community.

To wrap this up, I would like to publicly apologize to Hatchu for injuries caused by any harassment that he underwent. That said, I do believe that it is important for him specifically to realize where the line is drawn, and what the ramifications are of the abilities he has been entrusted with as a moderator.

To all those who read and respond to this post, please remember this:
Before taking an example, citing it, and telling me where I am wrong; please try read the entire piece, and then address the points set out into it. I realize that an ugly habit has popped up amoung readers here, as many just pull out a statement and attempt to rip it apart. This post is much to large for that to be beneficial, so please try to address my ideas, or sources.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, and I hope you benefit from what I have written.

[BelgarionRiva]

After reading this, I cannot stress how much I have written against the rulebook and on the implementation of moderators in the Vortex Wars community. For those who found SwordAlchemist's post as news, they should wake up and smell the flowers, because the people in power will never give up power. I have petitioned time and again on the forums for changes to the rulebook and against moderators. I have pointed out time and time again that the moderators are underaged, emotionally ridden teenagers that will abuse the user rights in whatever way the see fit. After reading the rulebook a good dozen times, I see nowhere written that a mod with a personal vendetta against a user has the right to ban him from the vortex wars game. What Hatchu did is unnacceptable. Within understandable boundaries, his action has an explanation and can be prevented if the rulebook had specific guidelines against banning for things that did not happen in the game. (Although it sounds like putting a "ATTENTION, HOT" label on a coffee, it seems it is outright necessary to do it.

As SwordAlchemist has pointed out; the main problem lies with the head moderator. SwordAlchemist went through the proper channels. He first contacted the mod in question, then contacted Fiendess. The mod in question refused to even consider his arguments while the head mod, Fiendess refused to even hear the arguments, or his side of the story. No matter if SwordAlchemist is right or wrong, Fiendess' behaviour is reprimendable and outright outrageous.

Here are some of her statements in these forums:

I will not tolerate IP abuse from my admins, your computers are safe in my hands.

Have no worries people ^^

I, for one, feel very threatened that a moderator with emotional and self-esteem problems and power hunger, has access to my IP. She can find out the general region where I live, and with a personal vendetta, she can find out where I live, what I do, where I go, etc.

I love how this is going into drama, so I'm gonna go straight to the point here.
I'm not a barbarian, i know when to draw a line, or let some silly act go.
I'm not gonna bother monitoring everyones accounts. I'll bother with troublemakers only.

if you do nothing malicious or wrong, then you shouldn't fear me, i am a nice person.

As for sef, Screenshots can be edited : Jpegsnoop detects that. very efficient technology.
I'm not easy to fool.

I assume of course, that this only applies when you give us the chance to tell you what happened.

Belga, i know my rulebook sounds pretty harsh, i could link you to 1 website....and you'd see why the rules are so harsh.
Also i am here to help, not ban, am very understanding and fair, before jumping to conclusions, give me a chance to prove my worth? Let me show you how i enforce the rules. I'm sure after a while you'll agree to all my points in it.

The rules quite easy to enforce when you don't listen to the people on which the rules are being enforced upon.

The ban chart is basically a guideline a moderator can follow, actions taken by moderators are under they're judgment and decision, not the charts. It is there to help the moderator with issues and how serious offenses are.

I am taking this in a professional way, and i understand your thoughts, it's normal to feel abit threatened.

Get to know me first though, don't start judging me, did you see any abuse from me in-game?

In that context, you were referring to the novelty of the moderators; but clearly my fears have turned to life because the rulebook Fiendess wrote is not followed by Fiendess.

I have enroled myself to become moderator and serve your customer service needs, i will be a very available person at your disposition, i will yes enforce the rules, host events and more.

The list goes on. This is not news. What happened here, today, was expected and has happened as a result of the inability of moderators to self-regulate their own power, within their boundaries. What happened to SwordAlchemist should be used as an example. The mod team should benefit from it and realise that there is a problem within their organisation.
Thank you for reading.

[Robomajor]

I do not feel as though the outcome here was just. I don't believe that Swordalchemist should have been banned because of what happened in the Kongregate chat room. Although I also don't tolerate harsh language, I take action by hitting the mute button. This strategy has allowed me to play many games peacefully. Based on the information we have, it sounds as though Hatchu was out of order.

If you (as in mods) would like to present your side of the story or just add some more information to the situation, I am sure that I, among other people, would love to have you shed some light on the story.

EDIT: Although I feel this way, I do not doubt that Lopdo's word is law for whatever happens in his game. Correct me if I am wrong (I am very tired while writing this), but do we even know if Lopdo has been involved with this case? From what we've read, we only know that Fiendess and Hatchu are apart of this, right?

[techgump]

Hmmm.

Let's take a reality check for one second. It is a game, albeit a good game, but still just a game. A game you now cannot play for 2 days out of the roughly 25,000 days you will live. Next time be a little nicer.

[Lopdo]

Kongregate chat is sort of gray area, it is part of VW and its community, but at the same time it isn't. Your actions there should not result in ban in the game, but you still should try to behave (I know that is too much to ask from people on internet ).

I know how sword behaves, I saw what sort of things he usually writes. It bothered me a little but I let it go. If the ban is in place solely because of actions in kong chat, then I will lift it.

I am also seriously considering dropping moderator features altogether... it just doesn't work as I hoped it would

[Ratburntro44]

Let's compare:
Moderators- Enforce their own rules, prevent people from doing 'bad' stuff even when they aren't in the community area, enforce their rules on people in their own homes, hand out punishment to people who break one of their rules in an attempt to change their actions in the future

Thought Police- Enforce their own rules, prevent people from doing 'bad' stuff even when they aren't in the community area, enforce their rules on people in their own homes, hand out punishment to people who break one of their rules in an attempt to change their actions in the future

Not trying to be mean to anyone, I'm just making an exaggerated comparison. Very exaggerated.

[BelgarionRiva]

I do not feel as though the outcome here was just. I don't believe that Swordalchemist should have been banned because of what happened in the Kongregate chat room. Although I also don't tolerate harsh language, I take action by hitting the mute button. This strategy has allowed me to play many games peacefully. Based on the information we have, it sounds as though Hatchu was out of order.

If you (as in mods) would like to present your side of the story or just add some more information to the situation, I am sure that I, among other people, would love to have you shed some light on the story.

EDIT: Although I feel this way, I do not doubt that Lopdo's word is law for whatever happens in his game. Correct me if I am wrong (I am very tired while writing this), but do we even know if Lopdo has been involved with this case? From what we've read, we only know that Fiendess and Hatchu are apart of this, right?

From what I understand, SwordAlchemist was talking on Kongregate chat, Hatchu was there. Hatchu banned Sword, Sword enquired to Hatchu, Hatchu denied claims, Sword appealed to Fiendess, Fiendess denied appeal before hearing them, Sword posted here.

Kongregate chat is sort of gray area, it is part of VW and its community, but at the same time it isn't. Your actions there should not result in ban in the game, but you still should try to behave (I know that is too much to ask from people on internet ).

I know how sword behaves, I saw what sort of things he usually writes. It bothered me a little but I let it go. If the ban is in place solely because of actions in kong chat, then I will lift it.

I find that you have ignored most (If not all) of the arguments in sword's post. Everything you have said has already been refuted before your post. Same goes for Techgump. What we are and are not allowed to do is only relevant inside of the jurisdiction of vw mods. I can swear to them as much as I like in real life, or on the kongregate website and they have no right to ban me from the vw game. Banning someone from the game while the insults were conducted outside of the game is taking it as a personal insult and using powers to one's advantage. This is reprimandable and should be punished. Since you did not even bring up the main issue in the topic (The fact that Fiendess, your head mod, said that she does not care about how she behaves outside of the game.) This should apply to all users if the head mod says so. Since her statement is wrong on so many levels, she should also be reprimanded and punished for her behaviour.

[techgump]

I think no one is paying attention to the fact that Hatchu stated this abuse first happened during a VW game. Recognize that the ban was placed before the documented discussions. If you expect to go around swearing at people and have positive experiences from this, your mistaken. This does not just apply to VW, but life in general. You get out of it what you put into it, so consider it one of life's lessons, and next time be a little nicer.

[Lopdo]

Kongregate chat is sort of gray area, it is part of VW and its community, but at the same time it isn't. Your actions there should not result in ban in the game, but you still should try to behave (I know that is too much to ask from people on internet ).

I know how sword behaves, I saw what sort of things he usually writes. It bothered me a little but I let it go. If the ban is in place solely because of actions in kong chat, then I will lift it.

I find that you have ignored most (If not all) of the arguments in sword's post.

You clipped last part where I summed what I think about all this situation (and all that happened before and will happen after)

[BelgarionRiva]

.
I am also seriously considering dropping moderator features altogether... it just doesn't work as I hoped it would

While what you say above is necessary for this kind of game, I dropped it because I felt like it had nothing to do with the argument you were making. I felt like it was more of a comment/conclusion.