Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

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Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby necrocat219 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:01 am

Hi Lopdo, this is a request to buff the two races: Terminators and Pumpkins. I don't think this has been brought up before but I really think that they both need buffs as they are outclassed in most cases by all the other races. Let me explain in detail before any conclusions are jumped to:

Terminators: Increase attack gained to 20%

The theme behind terminators is simple: If you attack with smaller armies your chances of winning increase. However they are underpowered in both of the most popular modes, Hardcore and Attrition. Firstly, the 15% has the biggest impact on 7vs8 battles, but even then you only just have a 50% chance of winning, and in hardcore where you lose all your men in one go this doesn't feel good enough to take the risk. You can always back it up with an attack boost, put players already have to stretch out their boosts. Now in attrition one might argue that the 15% bonus makes your opponent lose a few extra men if you lose, always being good in Attrition. The case is that the amount of men lost is calculated BEFORE your race bonus is applied to your roll; that means that if you lose attacking with Terminators, it's no different to losing an attack with elves, and your opponent loses the same amount of men in both cases.

Now why a 20% buff won't make them overpowered: The 20% buff has most impact on territories with 5 men or more, and admittedly in all those cases you go from just under a 50% chance of winning to a much better chance of winning. However you have to remember that your opponent will have to wait a whole turn to place their units before they can attack - this means that you can counter your opponents 7s with 7s, making it as if they were both 8s. In borders the 20% becomes situational as it still doesn't help much in early numbers (4 and below troops).

chess435 wrote:Okay, 7v8 math time. 1d6, the dice rolled for each unit before modifiers are applied, averages out to 3.5, so I'll be using that as a base for my calculations. 8d6 averages out to 28, so that will be our mark to beat with Terminators. (Note that this is a quick-and-dirty calculation and I didn't account for the fact that tie goes to the defender, so keep that in mind while reading.)

1. T(+15) vs +0% Def race
24.5 x 1.15 = 28.175 vs. 28
You have a slight advantage here, but not more than about 55/45

2. T(15) vs. +5% Def race
24.5 x 1.15 = 28.175 vs. 28 x 1.05 = 29.4
You are at a sizable disadvantage here, I'd estimate about 35/65

3. T(20) vs. +0% Def race
24.5 x 1.2 = 29.4 vs 28
You have the advantage this time around, also about 65/35.

4. T(20) vs. +5% Def race
24.5 x 1.2 = 29.4 vs. 28 x 1.05 = 29.4
It's exactly 50/50 here.


Considering matchups against arachnids and reptilians, who also have a 10% spawn bonus in addition to the constant attack or defense bonus, and the fact that the practice of having 7 troops in a territory leaving them more vulnerable to attack, I am in favor of buffing the Terminator attack bonus when outnumbered to 20% in order to keep them competitive with other high-tier races.



tl;dr The current state of the terminator is it's ability only benefits 7vs8 battles making them more or less equal. With the buff, it extends this reach, making the neutral point 5vs6 battles, with 6vs7 and 7vs8 battles tilting in your favor.


Pumpkins: Increase spawn bonus from 15% to 20%

Pumpkins are the underdog of the league that are seen by many as a joke race and by others as a niche race (like me!) but no matter how much I've tried to hide behind excuses of Pumpkins being able to increase their size at a much faster rate than opponents - called snowballing, having an extra man every 7 territories does not make up for the -5% atk and def. I've calculated the maths and this is when the 5% has an effect:

> Territories with 1-4 men, the negative bonus has no effect whatsoever
> Territories with 5 men, very little effect, most noticable 5vs6
> Territories 6-8, Has a notable effect, and as betagen calculated a while ago Pumpkins going 8vs8 drop from having a 45-50% chance of winning to 35-40% chance of winning which is very large.

This means that Pumpkins are an early game race, that have to win fast enough as to avoid having a bad time with it's negative stats. The buff I am suggesting is increasing the spawn bonus from 15% to 20%, which will allow them to gain a man every 5 territories instead. If you want to compare to arachnids and Reptiles this mean they will gain 1 more man than them for every 10 territories owned. This will allow Pumpkins to snowball better, but still keep their massive drawback.
Last edited by necrocat219 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby Ryankill » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:18 am

Terminaters r danger with 15 att. A smart player with 20 att?
I really hope this dosent happon. People say they r the best anyway
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby necrocat219 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:45 am

Ryankill wrote:Terminaters r danger with 15 att. A smart player with 20 att?
I really hope this dosent happon. People say they r the best anyway


You said absolutely no facts to back your oppinion up. All you are saying is that people saying they are the best makes them the best. Oooo, that race gains 15% and cost 3200 shards! They must be overpowered!

-_- Seriously, I've thought about them deeply and taken everything mathematical and tactical into account and I never want to buy them knowing how much they suck. If you're just going to slam my detailed analysis and reasoning for the buff without giving any reasons yourself except for fear of them themselves please don't make such a comment.
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby Chess435 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:11 am

Okay, 7v8 math time. 1d6, the dice rolled for each unit before modifiers are applied, averages out to 3.5, so I'll be using that as a base for my calculations. 8d6 averages out to 28, so that will be our mark to beat with Terminators. (Note that this is a quick-and-dirty calculation and I didn't account for the fact that tie goes to the defender, so keep that in mind while reading.)

1. T(+15) vs +0% Def race
24.5 x 1.15 = 28.175 vs. 28
You have a slight advantage here, but not more than about 55/45

2. T(15) vs. +5% Def race
24.5 x 1.15 = 28.175 vs. 28 x 1.05 = 29.4
You are at a sizable disadvantage here, I'd estimate about 35/65

3. T(20) vs. +0% Def race
24.5 x 1.2 = 29.4 vs 28
You have the advantage this time around, also about 65/35.

4. T(20) vs. +5% Def race
24.5 x 1.2 = 29.4 vs. 28 x 1.05 = 29.4
It's exactly 50/50 here.


Considering matchups against arachnids and reptilians, who also have a 10% spawn bonus in addition to the constant attack or defense bonus, and the fact that the practice of having 7 troops in a territory leaving them more vulnerable to attack, I am in favor of buffing the Terminator attack bonus when outnumbered to 20% in order to keep them competitive with other high-tier races.

As far as Pumpkins go, I'll get back to you when I have the time, though I don't think +20 spawn would break them.
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby necrocat219 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:51 am

Glad to know you're in favour, with the 15% boosts I don't usually calculate them due to their rounding ups and downs messing with calculations and also variations in rolls. I didn't realise about 7vs8 being pretty much equal but it makes sense with 15% spawn acting at 7 territories. Also with 20% I make safe estimates that applying a 20% boost to a 5vs6 situation will pretty much make it a 50/50 chance, with 4vs5 and below becoming less favorable and 6vs7 and above becoming more favorable having.

Another very important thing is what happens after the battle. When playing attrition, in that window that the terminators win that they would have lost previously even when they win they are guaranteed to be left with a 1 remaining, lowering the strategic value of their bonus in the first place.

In summary, the current state of the terminator is it's ability only benefits 7vs8 battles making them more or less equal. With the buff, it extends this reach, making the neutral point 5vs6 battles, with 6vs7 and 7vs8 battles tilting in your favor.

In regards to pumpkins I was thinking of two reasoning points: Direct comparisons to Rep/Arach and then a little bit of theory to go with it. If you assume 5%Atk=5%Def=10%Spawn as the general model for the basic races is then Pumpkins would look like they are at a disadvantage or even worse than No-bonus races, with the exchange to be balanced requiring pumpkins to have 20% spawn. There is the effect of 'snowballing' that has to be considered as well, as gaining additional men could lean to gaining more territories, gaining even more men which multiplies out and could lead to easy snowballing which can override even massive disadvantages in stats elsewhere. But to be honest I doubt that it would be a problem. When it gets to the end game even when pumpkins have a slight advantage their stats often keep them back a bit.
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby Joshua » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:08 am

There's nothing to compare Terminators to, since they're a unique race, which makes it a lot harder to decide. Overall, I think I'd be in favour, since I don't see a visible change in the strength of their rolls.

Pumpkins are a pretty crap race really.. Which is why hardly anyone uses them. Again, I'd be in favour here.

On a side note, I kind of want Reptiles' defence going down to 9%. Just for peace of mind.
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby Ryankill » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:53 am

Ok. I see i hava a 3v1 on this. Leave the races alone. They have what they have. When you buy them thays what u get.
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby necrocat219 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:07 am

Joshua wrote:There's nothing to compare Terminators to, since they're a unique race, which makes it a lot harder to decide. Overall, I think I'd be in favour, since I don't see a visible change in the strength of their rolls.

Pumpkins are a pretty crap race really.. Which is why hardly anyone uses them. Again, I'd be in favour here.

On a side note, I kind of want Reptiles' defence going down to 9%. Just for peace of mind.


Haha, I somehow think that would be considered a buff. Joking aside as I know you meant 4%, I think that 1% won't have any effect :P

Ryankill wrote:Ok. I see i hava a 3v1 on this. Leave the races alone. They have what they have. When you buy them thays what u get.


Ryan this isn't a fight, this is a discussion on game balancing, all videogames have discuson balancing. It's not about what personal experiences you have are, the maths is there and we are discussing based on facts. You can make useful contributions too if you give constructive critisizm, saying leave them alone doesn't say anything about how they compare to other races.
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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby Joshua » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:10 am

necrocat219 wrote:
Joshua wrote:There's nothing to compare Terminators to, since they're a unique race, which makes it a lot harder to decide. Overall, I think I'd be in favour, since I don't see a visible change in the strength of their rolls.

Pumpkins are a pretty crap race really.. Which is why hardly anyone uses them. Again, I'd be in favour here.

On a side note, I kind of want Reptiles' defence going down to 9%. Just for peace of mind.


Haha, I somehow think that would be considered a buff. Joking aside as I know you meant 4%, I think that 1% won't have any effect :P

*Le Self-Facepalm*

I meant 4%.. Thing is, I KNEW that the bonus was only 5%, I just mistyped..

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Re: Buff requests - Terminators and Pumpkins

Postby necrocat219 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:42 am

XD don't worry I just failed too! That would be a massive nerf, changing it from gaining +1 at 20 onwards to +1 at 25 onwards, having a big effect on rolls involving your 6s and 7s.
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